Topic: Religion.........

Bingo Ty Religion being the title of the thread that's what I was aiming at. Faith/belief/spirituality or whatever you wish to call it is a separate issue and I can't see any problem with believing in any god you see fit. I draw a very firm line with the man made/influenced aspect of it and that includes the Bible for me.

There must be a devil as such. There can be no good without evil. For there to be a god who is good & the creator of all things then there must also be one who is evil & the destroyer of all things. Biblical text states that God will be the one to destroy that which god created. If god is both creator & destroyer, then god must be both good & evil just like man is both good & evil.

The higher power & invisible forces I speak of are all around us. Gravity, heat, energy and matter, to name but a few. A higher power is a way of grouping all beliefs into one big melting pot. The belief that we were somehow created & are "governed" by forces other than ourselves.

Back to the whole religion thing though, it is clearly man made & the only input any god would've had on religion is the creation of man. Food & church rituals are man made concepts, yet they are found in biblical texts as the way to conduct oneself. Marriage, church, who & how to worship, commandments to follow, seven deadly sins. They can all be found in the bible which you earlier said was the word of God...... How can the Bible be the word of god if totally unnecessary & wrong religious rituals are found within its pages?

Gravity is what keeps us from floating away from this planet. Gravity is what holds this planet at the perfect distance from the star it orbits, which in turn allows us to survive. Gravity has played a massive part in not just our existence but also our creation.

Heat is VITAL to life. Just look at the poles of this planet for proof. Don't see many cold blooded animals there. Just the ones which can generate their own heat. It is the fact that we, as mammals, are so good at retaining heat & generating our own heat which has allowed us to survive & adapt in a world with an ever changing climate.

Energy, without it, we don't exist. We are dead when we lose our energy. There is no movement without energy. Heat is a form of energy, light is a form of energy. Another vitally important aspect of life.

Matter, well, matter makes up heat, light, energy, gravity & is what ALL things share. Matter is at the core of everything.

All of those things are vital to life. All of those things govern our existence. If this planet loses its gravitational grip on our moon it would throw our climate & tides into total chaos. If the sun were to lose its gravitational grip on our planet we would slingshot out into space & lose every unique thing about this planet which allows it to have life.

These things govern our every day lives & are all vital to our creation. How could they not be? How can they have no relevance when without them we cease to exist? How can they not been seen as a higher power when these things not only are vital to our creation but also hold the keys to our destruction?

If "God" is only good then "God" must have an equal counter part. Are you trying to convince me that Man is an equal counter balance to "God"?

And even if I go with your argument, with the creation of free will came evil or sin? God created Humans & free will. If that creation formed evil then "God" also created evil because had "God" not created Man & free will then evil could not of formed......

If "God" is supposed to be Alpha & Omega, The beginning and the end, Up & down, Left & right, in & out........ God must also be Good & Evil....... either that or there must be something else which is pure evil to counter the pure good of God.

You can't have one without the other.....

Tytonidae wrote:God created nature - it is requied to sustain the life that God created and this is only so because God made it that way. These elements you describe have no intrinsic bearing on creation, divine guidance and everlasting life.

Nah, that don't wash. Even if God created nature, we are still governed by these forces. Take them away & we cease to exist. Add to that the fact that God must of come from somewhere & you see that these forces possibly predate even God. After all, nothing from nothing leaves nothing.......

These forces mean everything to us & could even be seen as the higher power above any God. A god which has had little influence on us compared to forces which control & govern our very existence every single day. They never leave us, eternally with us, watching over us & at the center of everyone of us. If they desert us we no longer exist……

Sounds like a description of God to me. This is why there are referred to as higher powers because these things even make up some part of any God which may exist.

I see what you mean, but without these elements God cannot exist as these elements must also be a part of any God. God must've come from somewhere and what you are suggesting means that god must've created all these forces before existing as without them God cannot exist. The only other way would be if these forces came into existence with God which would mean that these forces are also God. They have the power to create & destroy, as does any God.

Tytonidae wrote:He wanted to make man free. Robotic control was not what he had in mind, if I may say. Evil is the absense of good. God did not create evil, man did not choose good. Evil is not an entity in it's own right. God allowed for the posibility of Evil but did not create it. Freedom requires this set up.

If God did not create evil then it must've existed otherwise. How can you give someone free will, effectively choice, if there are no option? How can you give someone the free will to be evil if evil doesn't exist? How can you know good if there is no evil?

If Evil was created with the creation of free will to man that means that, if free will had not been created, evil would not existence. If evil is directly attributed to the creation of free will then evil must be attributed to the creator of free will.

For there to be existence there must also be non existence. My post doesn't humanise God, it simply states that if God is something then that something cannot come from nothing. If God came from Nothing how can God be something?

Sooooooo Ty, you uphold that the bible is the word of god? The old testament was his first go at it "thou shalt not sneeze under a full moon" and all that jazz. Fire, brimstone and retribution all the way till he became a father and then it was all about understanding, sympathy and cuddles?

It does sound like a nice story and it's literally splattered with fables and morals, all written in a way that both inspires and educates the reader. I suppose the only bit that I'm interested in is why would you take the existence of god as a literal reference? Surely he is the voice of your conscience? The answer you hear when your prayers are answered is you finding the solution to your problems, the hand that guides you through difficult times is your own. To me it seems that god is the name put to your own inner strength or wisdom not a an old bearded guy watching over us. Why would you take that power away from yourself and hand it to another being?

Tytonidae wrote:NR said:
"If "God" is only good then "God" must have an equal counter part. Are you trying to convince me that Man is an equal counter balance to "God"?"

I say
No, I wouldn't set man up against God and God needs no counter.
Any idea that God and Satan are equal opposites is shattered by one great fact in Christian belief, namely that God has always existed. God was "before all things and by him all things came into being"(Col 1:16, Jhn 1:1-3).

You're probably right, God may not need a counter, but Good does. The counter for good is evil. Man has elements of evil & elements of good, by your own admission. You also say that God is pure good without the element of evil. For that to be the case there must be one that is pure evil with no element of good. If that is incorrect then God surely balances oneself by having elements of both pure evil & pure good.

Also, if God was before all things & created all things, but god is pure good, then god must've created all evil, otherwise God didn't create all things as evil does exist. How can God create all things but not create evil when evil does exist?

Here we go with this absence of argument

Evil exists but only as the absence of good? Okay, I'll buy that for a second. Still doesn't change what I'm saying. Somewhere, there must be a place which has no good, hence, in the absence of any good whatsoever, is pure evil, just like a place exists (Heaven or the place in which God "Resides") which has no evil & just pure good.

Also, if evil is the absence of good then it could also be argued that good is in fact the absence of evil.

This, in my opinion, has always been the problem with religion.
"God" is only good but is also vengeful, yet is has no evil?
There can exist a place where Evil is absent, but no place where Good is absent?
Yet the devil, as a direct opposite to God, is mentioned in the bible...... Which is supposed to be the word of God, but the devil which is mentioned is only mentioned metaphorically, but the God which is mentioned isn't metaphoric?
"God" created man & freewill & a side effect of this was the creation of Evil, but God didn't create Evil.....

If you ask another of the same religion, but a different denomination, even though they are reading from the same bible you will be told something different.
We're told we will go to Hell for our sins which is supposed to be a place of pure evil, the opposite of Heaven which is pure good, yet according to some this place does not exist, so in reality there is no point in having sins because they won't be punished as God is only Good & forgives all regardless of how we live our lives.

A positive without a negative. There's no Judgement. Judgement Day must be a lie. What is there to judge after all? Which part of heaven we get to go to? Also there shouldn't even be a Bible or anything like that as we will all end up in heaven or worst case scenario is we will not get into heaven but be allowed to remain here which only has an element of evil but also has elements of good & is where we were in the first place. Because, of course, there is no pure evil place, so there can be no Hell.....

Religion, to me, seems to be unable to make up its own mind. It is split, fractured & confused by itself. This can only condemn religion to a slow death. It's not a matter of "IF" more a matter of "When".

Oh, and death is the absence of life right? But one cannot die unless one has lived & one cannot live if one cannot die.............

You can't have one without the other....

I'm not afraid of Einstein. He was human, just like me. I can promise you that even the smartest minds on the planet have been wrong at least once. I can also promise you that it wasn't the smartest mind on the planet that spotted the inaccuracy when the smartest mind has been wrong..... If it wasn't for people challenging the theories of others where would we be? And you must remember, what Albee said there was only a theory......

Einstein would've been fun to debate with.....

I'll await your Reply........

Good was created & Evil is the absence of Good. So before Good was created there was only Evil? Good was absent after all so what you are saying is that Evil predates Good?

If Good did not exist before God created it how can God not have any evil?? Surely if God was around when there was no Good & God indeed created Good then God would have to have some element of evil because good was absent before God created it and God existed before the creation of Good.........


There is No Hell, but there is a Heaven? A positive without a negative. A place where Evil is absent.... Now, if all Good people are taken into Heaven after Judgement, then that will only leave all the evil people. Evil people with the absence of Good people in limbo........ Isn't that Hell? Isn’t that the direct opposite of Heaven? Would that not be a place where pure evil exists, as there is an absence of all good? So what you must be saying is that there is no Hell at the moment, but Hell will be created on Judgement day because God will only take the Good & those who have truly repented their earthly sins? Would this act not be the creation of Hell by the hands of God?

We will not all end up in Heaven yet no one will go to Hell?
So, someone who doesn't take God into their heart but lives a decent life will be put into the same bracket as murderers & rapists? Yet, murderers & rapists will be allowed passage into the eternal Kingdom of God as long as they repent their sins & take God into their hearts?

What's the point of following anything the Bible says if you can get to judgement day & say "Sorry God, I was wrong. Got a little confused down there. I'm really sorry for everything I did & will take you into my heart immediately"? In fact, if this is the case what is the point in the Bible or Religion at all? Someone’s got to be wrong…….

You cannot live if you cannot die. The only thing which is sure in life is death & to die you must live. To live you must die. If you cannot die then you cannot be alive. Everything has a beginning & an end. Birth is the beginning of life, Death is the end of life.

Even if I go with what you’re saying, that death is only the absence of everlasting life with God, then are we not all dead at the moment? We don't have everlasting life with God at the moment, so what you're saying is until Judgement day, until we are accepted into Heaven none of us are truly alive? Yet people die…..

How has religion managed to stay around for as long as it has can when it poses more questions than it answers? With a society which asks increasingly more questions, how can religion survive for much longer?

Tytonidae wrote:......"obey my commands and we'll be fine, but disobey them and there'll be consequences"
The entire Old Testament speaks of God's devotion to His chosen people, and His desire for relationship with them.

If we have to "Obey" God like good little pets what was the point in giving us free will then?

If we are Gods children, Gods creation, Gods chosen people, why not give us unconditional love? Is that not what a parent does?

I believe I'm more questioning in my thinking than anything else, but that's the first time I've heard it described as 'earthly' I kinda like it.

Tytonidae wrote:One is free to disobey, obviously completely FREE to do wrong and disengage from God but if one does, there may be consequences - however, God's love is unconditional in the sense that it is in his gift and no matter what we are, he may still love us if he so chooses.

So how is God so different from man? How can we be punished or ignored for doing that which God also does? God chooses to love us.... well, those of us who choose to love God in return..... Those of us who choose not to follow a set of "rules" to the letter or those of us who rebel against the writings of what is ultimately man, are cast aside..... Left unloved...... Sounds like the only free will, well when you strip it bare it's really the only "choice", we have is whether or not we jump for treats......

Tytonidae wrote:If we could do or be anything, not love God but even so be guaranteed he would still love us and give everlasting life, then we would in fact not be free. It is at that point that we would become puppets

If what you say is true how are we are we not puppets already? The top quote sounds like it’s a case of “Do as I command and you’ll live forever! Don’t do as I command and you get tossed in the cupboard and forgotten about……..”
Sounds kind of puppet like to me……

Tytonidae wrote: You see God created perfection, only good but with choices. He could have created what you seem to want NR, which is good humans (for want of a better expression) that can only be good, that can not be judged, that do no and can do no wrong. How would humans like this be free? please tell me how you would create a free man, NR...

It would be impossible to create anything “Good” in what would be constant evil….. You see, going by your earlier “Einstein” video, Evil would have to be constant, because as you put it “Evil is the absence of Good”….. You see, using that same logic, “Darkness is the absence of light” (said in the same clip) the only reason that is possible would be if dark was a constant (guess who…) How can it be expected for everything to remain “Good” in what is constant “evil”? How can you then punish those who were created and placed there by ones own “hand”, placed there with free will no less, if they happen to slip or bow to temptation?

Tytonidae wrote:

LP wrote:Sooooooo Ty, you uphold that the bible is the word of god? The old testament was his first go at it "thou shalt not sneeze under a full moon" and all that jazz. Fire, brimstone and retribution all the way till he became a father and then it was all about understanding, sympathy and cuddles?

It does sound like a nice story and it's literally splattered with fables and morals, all written in a way that both inspires and educates the reader. I suppose the only bit that I'm interested in is why would you take the existence of god as a literal reference? Surely he is the voice of your conscience? The answer you hear when your prayers are answered is you finding the solution to your problems, the hand that guides you through difficult times is your own. To me it seems that god is the name put to your own inner strength or wisdom not a an old bearded guy watching over us. Why would you take that power away from yourself and hand it to another being?

The Old Testament (in a nutshell) is an endless cycle of God urging His people to come back to Him. In the first place (eg. Genesis) man is in harmony with God - they walked side by side through the garden of Eden. But man ignored the commands of God and then an eternal wedge was driven between both parties; the wedge of sin.

The Old Testament is subsequently a cycle of God saying "obey my commands and we'll be fine, but disobey them and there'll be consequences"
The entire Old Testament speaks of God's devotion to His chosen people, and His desire for relationship with them. It is this desire and devotion (as well as the law, of course) that becomes fulfilled through His son, Jesus Christ. Jesus has abolished the ceremonial laws by his death and resurrection, paving the way to God.

God is not the voice of one's conscience, God is God, your conscience is your conscience and peoples conscience standards vary. Prayers are not answered in an earthly way.
I have handed nothing to anybody Lily, that is impossible; I am me, my mistakes are mine and the consequences will affect me alone but I am hoping to be pleasing to God.

I like you a lot Ty and I respect your position because despite this barrage of questioning you have remained steadfast in your beliefs.

Juuuuuuust one thing (columbo style) Can you have a look into Quantum Mechanics? I just want to see if that alters the way you see how god works? Things can be alive and dead at the same time, scientific fact.

Did I just say fact?? I meant solid theory

Tytonidae wrote:Nobody denies that humans have a greater understanding than animals, so it should make sense to us that an Almighty God would have a greater understanding than humans. The Bible says we see through a glass darkly. We’re also told to trust in the LORD with all our heart and lean not unto our own understanding. Why? Because His wisdom and understanding far exceeds our own and since we know He is good, we know we can trust Him.
I'll persist though:
You've just said, in a different way, that evil always was.

I would challenge that because it depends firmly on what “Understanding” we are referring to. We cannot understand animals, yet they can understand & follow our commands with little effort…. If they can understand not only themselves, but also us, yet we can only understand ourselves but not them, who is really at an advantage? Who really has a greater understanding? Is it the pupil who can only accept one teaching or the pupil who can accept many?

Effectively, what you are saying is in the relationship between Man & God, Man is much like the animal in the man & beast relationship, which would mean “God” would take the role of “Man”. But as I said, the beast understands both itself and man where as man merely understands himself & expects the beast to understand man. So we, as man, should understand our “Lord & Master”, but our “Lord & Master” has little reason to understand us even though that “Lord & Master” is our creator & will be the one to bring Judgment? If this is the case it begs the question, does one want to Love, take into thy heart & accept being judged by a “Lord & Master” who doesn’t feel the need to know & understand me before laying down that judgement?
Is it really acceptable and fair, in a sense “Good”, to punish that person who doesn’t want to tow that particular party line?

Us being “told to trust in the “Lord” with all our heart & lean not unto our own understanding” sounds simply like another way of saying “Do as I say and question not thy judgement.” Yet that is supposed to be coming from the very same creator who created man with an inquisitive nature? Is it “right” & “good” to turn to our children when they ask a question & say “Don’t question me, I know best”? Is that not something which you yourself have said should not be done & is not right?

So, was that just another “Side effect” of free will? Something God was unaware of? It’s starting to sound like God made a boo-boo. It seems inevitable that with free will you will never be able to make everyone love you. With free will there will always be those who rebel, who go against that which you wish them to do and who take a different understanding to the rest. It’s the essence of free will that of 10 beings with free thinking at least 1 will not conform to the rest. Yet you get punished for being that one?
Is it a case of God is not a perfect being, can not foresee all and made a basic miscalculation in the sum which is man, inadvertently creating something unexpected and being unsure how to deal with it except to cast the “Bad apples” aside? Or is it a case of God knew exactly what to expect from the creation of man & knew that whilst some would be taken into the bossom of the lord for doing that which was expected, others would be shunned & cast aside for also doing that which was expected?
Whichever answer you provide, Can it really be expected for all of mankind to accept, love & take into thy heart such a “God”?

Tytonidae wrote:There is no evil and even the possibility only came at the fall of Adam. There is no other way I can say it. So, as man was created before the possibility of evil, I ask you again NR - how would you, at that time lets say, have created a human with the 'free' choice to obey?

Hang on….. So earlier, evil was created with man & man has an element of evil within, but god is pure good so has no evil within, (That is what you posted earlier)
Then it didn’t exist, (Something else you have also said….)
Then it was merely the absence of Good (Which you provided video evidence for…) which would require it to be a constant (confirmed from the same source as the video you provided) But it’s not a constant…….
Now it’s a possibility which only came about with the fall of Adam……
Yet, something which cannot be argued, “Evil” in direct opposition to Good is undoubtedly with us………… Yet it doesn’t exist….. How does it make sense?

How would I create a human with free choice to Obey? It’s not possible. If you want them to truly be free you cannot expect them to “Obey” your commands & punish them if they don’t. That’s a Slave, Master relationship. We may as well be nothing but pets. Do as I say & I’ll look after you, don’t do as I say and I won’t love you. As humans we give our children, our creation, our unconditional love. Even when they go against everything we say, we are still there for them. We are wiser than them & recognise that no matter what we tell them the possibility is there for them to make a mistake. Do we stop loving them because of this? Would it be right to not love our creation because of the inevitable? Either way, is it any surprise that some reject such an arrangement?

Tytonidae wrote:Yes, you must walk with God, love him obey rules, follow guidlines or you may not attain everlasting life - yes, NR that is correct but 'a puppet jumping for treats' it does not make you, you don't have to desire everlasting life, you may please yourself. Choice is what you have, that's it

If I have to “obey” to attain everlasting life, how am I not a puppet jumping for treats. Think about a puppet for a moment. It lives eternally as long as someone is there to control it. As long as it moves its arms & legs when you want it to it will be in your show forever (or until you get bored with the show). As soon as it starts to disobey you & no longer follow your instructions, no longer moves as, when & how you want it to, the puppet is discarded into a spare cupboard to gather dust…… Never again to see the light of day unless it somehow finds a way back into your good graces or into the good graces of another….. It’s thrown into nothingness which is what you said we could look forward to instead of everlasting life if we don’t obey as we are told…….
To me, it sounds like you are describing a child with a pet rather than an all powerful creator. A creator who created man with the option to do as we please, so long as we do it the way that is wanted….. I think I may prefer to enjoy the life I have now and prepare for eternal nothingness if that’s the case. I’m not surprised that there are those who think “I don’t want to give my unconditional love to a “God” who places conditions on the love that I may receive in return”…….. I’m far from surprised that there are those who would prefer not to have this kind of one way, Master / Pet relationship. And that means one of two things:
A) God always knew this would be a problem & simply doesn’t really care…….
B) God didn’t have a clue that this would be a problem so cannot be all seeing & all knowing, therefore, may not be as wise as may be said.

Which do you think it is? Or is there another option (apart from the obvious…) which I have yet to explore?

Admittedly, you didn't post those exact words, but that's how I took the below post..

Tytonidae wrote:NR said:
"There must be a devil as such. There can be no good without evil. For there to be a god who is good & the creator of all things then there must also be one who is evil & the destroyer of all things. Biblical text states that God will be the one to destroy that which god created. If god is both creator & destroyer, then god must be both good & evil just like man is both good & evil."

I say:
God is only Good. He did not "create" evil. He gave humans free will. This free will caused sin when adam and eve ate from the forbidden tree.

Think I just grabbed this from page 3.... maybe four. Can't remember now.

I know puppets have no free will but puppets only "live" for as long as they do as commanded...

Hang on, man was created and when he disobeyed God Sin/evil/wrong/bad entered the picture....... Errrr maybe I'm being really thick but that sounds like sin/evil/wrong/bad came about with the creation of man

So, to put it another way, this "life" that I have been "given" here on earth is a "test" of sorts by God to see if I can overcome "evil" / sin & take God into my heart, thus proving to God that I am "worthy"? Only then will I be allowed to walk eternally with God? Have I got that right?

So man was created. Fell out of favour with God, and that's when evil came into the picture? Had man not "Fallen out" with God then evil would never have entered the picture, right? And man only fell out with God due to "Free will", right?

If that's what you are saying then how is that any different to what I'm saying? Basically I'm seeing what you're saying like this, no creation of man with free will equals no evil. Creation of man with free will equals evil. The creation of man with "free will" led to evil, so evil was created with man as man was created with "free will".

Either way, if evil doesn't exist, how did it come at the fall?

Man fell out with God because of his choice to disobey. The fact he had the choice / option to disobey was present because he had free will. If man didn't have free will he couldn't make a choice. "Free will is about choices" after all..... If it was the choice man went with which brought about evil, then the fact that man could make a choice led to evil. Man could only make a choice because he had free will..... You see where I'm going with this?

Evil can only be the absence of Good if evil is a constant & always there. Just like dark is a constant and always there as it is the absence of light, or cold is a constant as it is the absence of heat. So what you're saying is that Evil is always there & is occasionally over powered by Good, like dark is occasionally overpowered by light. This means that if there is no Good there can only be evil. As you say that God created Good, before that creation only evil could be there, in the absence of good.
Before you turn on a light there is darkness. Turn the light off & darkness resumes.
Before you turn on the heat it is cold. Turn the heating off & coldness resumes.
Before you turn on the Good, there can only be evil. Turn off the Good & evil resumes.

The theory falls apart any other way...... You don’t need Einstein to tell you that, but he will if you want……

Okay, just to clarify something, at no point have I said that I don't believe in a "God" of some description. As I've said, I grew up in a very religious family & am lucky enough to know people from many different faiths. I simply don't buy into a "God" who is perfect & all good without a counter.