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Vigilantes - split from Jamie Bulger thread
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Re: Vigilantes - split from Jamie Bulger thread
by Frog 2nd August 2010, 2:05 pm
Nice link NR, I like this bit at the start:
"Then, almost as soon as it had begun, the hysteria that swept through Puritan Massachusetts ended."
Hysteria is how they describe it, an isolated occurrence that was fuelled by fear and ignorance. I think we should leave aside the legalities of it considering they changed the law to encompass their misguided beliefs
"Phips created a new court, the "court of oyer and terminer," to hear the witchcraft cases. Five judges, including three close friends of Cotton Mather, were appointed to the court."
You could call it legal but noone else on the planet at the time, before the time and since the time would agree with you. The vigilantes changed the rules so they could stay within them.
"Then, almost as soon as it had begun, the hysteria that swept through Puritan Massachusetts ended."
Hysteria is how they describe it, an isolated occurrence that was fuelled by fear and ignorance. I think we should leave aside the legalities of it considering they changed the law to encompass their misguided beliefs
"Phips created a new court, the "court of oyer and terminer," to hear the witchcraft cases. Five judges, including three close friends of Cotton Mather, were appointed to the court."
You could call it legal but noone else on the planet at the time, before the time and since the time would agree with you. The vigilantes changed the rules so they could stay within them.
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Re: Vigilantes - split from Jamie Bulger thread
by El_Guapo 2nd August 2010, 2:59 pm
lol
A bit of a sweeping generalisation there!! And you know I can't resist the bait... ;-)
noone else on the planet at the time
The planet is a big place. What people in other regions think is lawful or unlawful is irrelevent to events that happen outside their jurisdiction. All we need to think about is whether the residents of Salem considered the trials lawful...
The definition of a vigilante is:
http://www.answers.com/topic/vigilante
1. One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands.
2. A member of a vigilance committee.
No participant of the Salem witch trials can be said to be a vigilante because they did not take the law into their own hands. Rather, they looked towards the courts (even though the courts were admittedly warped and corrupt they were nevertheless the judicial system accepted at the time) for "justice."
Phips created a new court, the "court of oyer and terminer
Introducing new courts to hear different types of cases is nothing new even in our so called civilised society. For example, our family courts dealing with family matters were brought into existence a long time after the criminal courts. Any judicial system always needs to be able to adapt to changing circumstances.
A bit of a sweeping generalisation there!! And you know I can't resist the bait... ;-)
noone else on the planet at the time
The planet is a big place. What people in other regions think is lawful or unlawful is irrelevent to events that happen outside their jurisdiction. All we need to think about is whether the residents of Salem considered the trials lawful...
The definition of a vigilante is:
http://www.answers.com/topic/vigilante
1. One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands.
2. A member of a vigilance committee.
No participant of the Salem witch trials can be said to be a vigilante because they did not take the law into their own hands. Rather, they looked towards the courts (even though the courts were admittedly warped and corrupt they were nevertheless the judicial system accepted at the time) for "justice."
Phips created a new court, the "court of oyer and terminer
Introducing new courts to hear different types of cases is nothing new even in our so called civilised society. For example, our family courts dealing with family matters were brought into existence a long time after the criminal courts. Any judicial system always needs to be able to adapt to changing circumstances.
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Re: Vigilantes - split from Jamie Bulger thread
by Frog 2nd August 2010, 3:04 pm
I gotta go out but I'll come back to you on that one later 
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Re: Vigilantes - split from Jamie Bulger thread
by El_Guapo 2nd August 2010, 3:09 pm
yeh...I really should get some work done too!!! lol
Nice little chat tho :-)
Nice little chat tho :-)
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Re: Vigilantes - split from Jamie Bulger thread
by Frog 2nd August 2010, 5:37 pm
I'll have to retract the planet statement, got a bit ahead of myself there
Again it's true that judicial systems need to be able to react to changes in society but that doesn't make this court legal
"On December 17, 1696, the General Court ruled that there would be a fast day on January 14, 1697, "referring to the late Tragedy, raised among us by Satan and his Instruments." On that day, Samuel Sewall asked Rev. Samuel Willard to read aloud his apology to the congregation of Boston's South Church, "to take the Blame & Shame" of the "late Commission of Oyer & Terminer at Salem". Thomas Fiske and eleven other trial jurors also asked forgiveness"
That is from Wikipedia but it's also cited so it's likely to be accurate. In fact it's worth reading the Aftermath and Closure section of Wiki's entry in it's entirety.
Again it's true that judicial systems need to be able to react to changes in society but that doesn't make this court legal
"On December 17, 1696, the General Court ruled that there would be a fast day on January 14, 1697, "referring to the late Tragedy, raised among us by Satan and his Instruments." On that day, Samuel Sewall asked Rev. Samuel Willard to read aloud his apology to the congregation of Boston's South Church, "to take the Blame & Shame" of the "late Commission of Oyer & Terminer at Salem". Thomas Fiske and eleven other trial jurors also asked forgiveness"
That is from Wikipedia but it's also cited so it's likely to be accurate. In fact it's worth reading the Aftermath and Closure section of Wiki's entry in it's entirety.
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Re: Vigilantes - split from Jamie Bulger thread
by Frog 2nd August 2010, 5:51 pm
Furthermore:
"It should be noted that only the Judicial Branch of the Provincial Government can form a court as a part of governmental checks and balances. Clearly, Phipps was overstepping his own authority. Additionally, none of the magistrates of the Court of Oyer and Terminar had any legal training and relied heavily on their various religious backgrounds"
So the court was never endorsed by the government, making it illegal
"It should be noted that only the Judicial Branch of the Provincial Government can form a court as a part of governmental checks and balances. Clearly, Phipps was overstepping his own authority. Additionally, none of the magistrates of the Court of Oyer and Terminar had any legal training and relied heavily on their various religious backgrounds"
So the court was never endorsed by the government, making it illegal
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Re: Vigilantes - split from Jamie Bulger thread
by EarthsAngel 11th October 2010, 3:50 pm
I say a resounding NO to vigilantes, I have seen them at work first hand, they are a mob driven by some evil to kill anyone in their way. Would you like a mob of skinheads trawling the streets and beating anyone they didn't like?
Many innocent people have been tortured and murdered by mobs w's only aim in life is to cause pain. Men accused of rape have been beaten half to death and then burned alive, it happens on a regular basis here. Is that the kind of justice you want?
The neighbourhood watch method is much better, responsible citizens with 100% proof of guilt. You can't be judge, jury and executioner. A good beating normally does it here. We have violent and maladjusted morons who think it's fine to rape, murder, steal, usually a good beating with a shambok more often than now will send them along a better path.
Many innocent people have been tortured and murdered by mobs w's only aim in life is to cause pain. Men accused of rape have been beaten half to death and then burned alive, it happens on a regular basis here. Is that the kind of justice you want?
The neighbourhood watch method is much better, responsible citizens with 100% proof of guilt. You can't be judge, jury and executioner. A good beating normally does it here. We have violent and maladjusted morons who think it's fine to rape, murder, steal, usually a good beating with a shambok more often than now will send them along a better path.
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EarthsAngel- Hatchling
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Location : South Africa
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