Ethical Dilemma

Depends on the country it's heading to

If there were no other options available I'd more than likely sink the vessel. 30 innocents vs thousands of innocents makes it a quick decision for me.

But as I said, the destination of the ship could change my thinking dramatically.......

With little information on the passengers or destination of the ship it has to come down to a numbers game. With more information my decision would more than likely change.

I think my biggest "problem" with making this decision is that I see death as a natural process of life. At some point all the people on the ship & all the people in the country the ship is heading for will certainly die. The only decision which would be left with me is if they die now or at a later date.

However, the fact that they are on the ship means their "fate" has already been decided because if the ship reaches its destination there is every chance that during the slaughter of thousands, those people on the ship will be amongst those thousands slaughtered. The real question seems to be do you allow thousands to die along with the 30 or so passengers on the ship......?

Killing Hitler as a baby would, in my mind, be a pretty pointless exercise. It's not the fact he was born which made him how he was, it's the environment in which he was raised & the experiences he had through his life. We are all a product of our experiences & our environments and I'm pretty sure even if Hitler had been killed as a baby there would've been someone else to take his place.

Tytonidae wrote:You rationalize your decision NR. I'm not sure that guessing whether they'll die anyway, or the country of destination, or their inevitable mortality affects the moral imparitive at all. YOU would be making the choice and it would be YOUR conscience under pressure.
Is there no room in your psyche for not being able to decide? Being torn;This is the real dilemma NR...and what if somene you loved was on board, would it be a numbers game then?

My decision making process remains pretty much the same regardless of the situation. I would have to consider the facts I have & make a choice based on those facts. There is no room for not being able to decide, because lack of decision means the ship reaches its destination & starts slaughtering people & overthrowing the country. By not making a decision the decision is made for me & my conscience then has to deal with my lack of action which led to the death of thousands. Realistically, in my head at any rate, it comes down to a numbers game, regardless of who is on board. Could my conscience deal with me trading the life of 1 who is loved by me for the lives of thousands who are loved by others?

The 30 people on board are loved and so are the thousands in the country the ship is heading for. The situation is the same for both.

The 30 people on board are innocents & are women and children. The thousands in the country are innocents & women and children are there too. That situation is the same for both.

The 30 people on board deserve the right to live. The thousands in the country deserve the right to live. The situation is again the same for both.

Of course if there are differences then I may be able to base my decision on those. But if everything is similar apart from how many people will die I can only base my decision on the one thing which separates the people involved. Numbers. 30 vs Thousands.

As you said guessing whether or not the 30 on board will die anyway shouldn’t come into it. The destination of the country also shouldn’t matter, so I am just left with the facts. All involved are human beings, all involved are innocent. On the one hand I have 30 innocent human beings, on the other hand I have Thousands of innocent human beings. All of their lives are of the same value and by attempting to save one set I am condemning the other set to death. With “Facts” such as those, for me, the choice is simple.
Can my conscience deal with the sacrifice of thousands to save 30? I’m not sure it could. Can my conscience deal with the sacrifice of 30 to save thousands? I think I’d have a much better chance than the other way round.

Like it or lump it, it comes down to numbers. It’s the only thing to base the choice on. Being torn will only lead to the death of thousands & possibly the 30 as well. Being torn makes the choice for you. My conscience would have an easier time dealing with a decision I made than it would dealing with my lack of action....

Tytonidae wrote:Killing Hitler as a baby, even though I agree about upbringings, would prevent this madmans existence. You have no way whatsoever of knowing another of his ilk would go so far(irrelevant anyway), so killing Hitler would infact cure the problem but the ethical dilemma remains the same. Trading one life for the greater good? is this the correct thing to do? this is why the Hitler question is posed..

Yes, killing Adolf Hitler would prevent the existence of Adolf Hitler, but to think that it would prevent the existence of everything the Hitler & the Nazi’s stood for is a little naïve. He had no problem getting many people to follow him and those people had no problem carrying out orders from him or others. Hitler may have been the Gun, but a Gun doesn’t kill without a bullet & someone to pull the trigger. Killing Hitler at birth would just simply mean that someone else would’ve taken his place. Someone who could possibly have been worse than Hitler, and someone who could’ve succeeded where Hitler failed.
History has proven one thing; “madmen” have always existed. Trading one’s life for the “greater good” can be good IF it will be for the greater good. Due to WW2 many countries were given independence, people became closer & more aware of petty squabbles between them, Human rights were brought in, equality for race’s was brought in. Much changed after ww2. Look at it like a forest fire; all that devastation ends up clearing the way for new life. A different look, different plants, different animals, but maybe better…. A meteor hitting this planet & wiping out at least 85% of life on this planet allowed humans to grow & thrive. Sometimes good can come out of bad.

The best way to stop Hitler would’ve been to stop WW1. Killing Baby Adolf Hitler as a one off action would be useless and would cure nothing. The only thing it would do is deny a child the opportunity to become something decent & give some other “madman” the opportunity to do what Hitler could not…….

I understand your point with this one Ty but I as you have given us all the facts and figures this does have to be a it becomes a straightforward logical decision, all be it a difficult burden to bear. If you told us that killing the 30 might not save thousands but it was the best shot we had it would a much harder decision to justify

If you do nothing you condem everyone to death.......... sacrificing all lives for no reason You could live with that? What if in try to save your loved one you ended up condeming them all to death?

As for Hitler, Charasmatic & motivated people are a dime a dozen. It was the circumstances which allowed him to rise to power. If it wasn't Hitler I firmly believe it would've been someone else and that someone else may not have had Hitlers flaws.......

Look...I'm just popping in to say hi to TY!!!...... ....

As for killing Hitler as a baby.......well....that's a kinda hindsight thing....who knew the little blue eyed bub would turn into a monster!!.......so...on that basis....who would dream of killing it!!!..no-one sane!!!....killing him as an adult before he went so far makes more sense..........and I'm sure someone tried!!...........or lots!!....but I suppose you mean......IF he had been killled as a baby!!..or didn't exist even!!......but you are saying Killing him!!....

just saying!!

How about this for ethical dilemma!!......your kid commits a serious crime!!.....do you shop him...or cover his tracks!!!......I would suppose your answer might be swayed by whether you have kids or not!!!............or maybe not!!!..........

Tytonidae wrote:

jezebel wrote:Look...I'm just popping in to say hi to TY!!!...... ....

As for killing Hitler as a baby.......well....that's a kinda hindsight thing....who knew the little blue eyed bub would turn into a monster!!.......so...on that basis....who would dream of killing it!!!..no-one sane!!!....killing him as an adult before he went so far makes more sense..........and I'm sure someone tried!!...........or lots!!....but I suppose you mean......IF he had been killled as a baby!!..or didn't exist even!!......but you are saying Killing him!!....

just saying!!

How about this for ethical dilemma!!......your kid commits a serious crime!!.....do you shop him...or cover his tracks!!!......I would suppose your answer might be swayed by whether you have kids or not!!!............or maybe not!!!..........

Yeh, Hi lovely jez good to see you

Yes, I am saying kill him as an infant. Really jez there would be no dilemma if one didn't KNOW how Hitler would turn out, so I presume that for the purposes of that hypothetical one WOULD have to know the outcome. So jezebel if you knew the end result, would you then kill him as a baby?

I'll be back to your protecting loved ones dilemma hon...

Hey Ty!!... it's always good to see you too!!


Hmmmm!!. ....on that basis!!.......It's quite simple really!!...... ....yes!!....absolutely!!....who wouldn't!!.....no matter whether there would be another like him.....to take his place......there still wouldn't be him!!.... .......and hopefully....if there were anyone else like him ...then...or in the future.....hyperthetically....we'd know they were gonna be monsters too....and we could kill them all!!.......

To answer your question Jez, as olly said, more information would be required. For instance, if my son raped a woman I would beat 2 shades of crap out of him & drag him to the police station myself.

However, if my son brought a smoked a bit of weed I'd probably just ask him for some.....

NR_TOAB wrote:To answer your question Jez, as olly said, more information would be required. For instance, if my son raped a woman I would beat 2 shades of crap out of him & drag him to the police station myself.

However, if my son brought a smoked a bit of weed I'd probably just ask him for some.....

Ello you!!.....

Well you kinda answered!!....I mean...rape or murder..or armed robbery etc.......so ...you would hand them over!!.........some people wouldn't and don't you know!!....

Rape, Murder, Armed Robbery, I'd shop them in less than a second.

Something less serious, maybe not.