Topic: Religion.........

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Topic: Religion.........

Post by Bones on 20th November 2009, 10:59 am

In my mind, the whole concept of religion had to be created by man. To me, it was created as a form of control, to help govern societies without having to explain why, as one cannot question that which has come from up on high. There is no way to question a "God", to prove that "God" is right or wrong or to seek explanation or clarification of what is said to be "The word of God".

Most religious books are packed with exaggerated accounts of things which are said to have come to pass. Stories to wow & amaze at. Tales that can be looked upon as miracles by those who were not there to witness the truth unfold. Stories of parting seas, plagues, crumbling walls, immaculate conceptions etc, have fascinated people for hundreds of years. Stories about “God” taking vengeance, an inevitable Judgement day and, of course, “The Devil” have frightened & worried people for hundreds of years too.

But with modern advances, many of these tales have been challenged. The sea which is said to have been parted is now thought to be little more than a river mouth at low tide. Celebrated biblical figures exposed as little more than ruthless, brutal warlords who would stop at nothing to reach their goal. Could religion, as a whole, be exposed as little more than a form of mind control?

Many people today, no matter how religious they claim to be, only pay any attention to their chosen religion at certain times like Christmas, Easter, Diwali, Ramadan, Hanukkah, Weddings, Funerals, Baptisms, etc.
Religious texts and “The word of God” are reinterpreted for modern times. Religion & “God” has for centuries been used as justification for brutal wars to be fought, for people to be horrifically slaughtered, for people to be treated differently and is still used in the same way today.

On the other side, many have found “salvation” and even “enlightenment” within religious texts. Many who feel at a low ebb turn to religion which they believe helps them through the bad times.

But, with less people going to “Churches” and dwindling numbers celebrating religious holidays for the reasons they should be celebrated, the questions I pose are these.
Is the human race growing out of religion?
Do we still need it knowing the things we now know?
Would the human race be better or worse off without it?
And can it survive for much longer?

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Re: Topic: Religion.........

Post by jezebel on 20th November 2009, 11:13 am

Oh god....don't get me started!!.......... Evil or Very Mad ..scuse pun!!

Don't people realise anything about science..about how water got on this planet........((asteroids))...how life truly began!!.....too much religion being taught at schools instead of science!!...........

OK..questions!!
Is the human race growing out of religion? ...YES..but too slowly!!

Do we still need it knowing the things we now know?.. NO....see above!!

Would the human race be better or worse off without it?..Better..less wars ...less bureaucratic bullshit!!...People will find there own hope in life!!

And can it survive for much longer?..I dammed well hope not!!......but it won't be gone in my lifetime!!


It's like believing in Harry Potter!!..........

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Re: Topic: Religion.........

Post by jezebel on 20th November 2009, 11:23 am

Hi Ty......... Waving

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Re: Topic: Religion.........

Post by Bones on 20th November 2009, 11:31 am

But science requires just as much belief & faith as religion.
It's like trading off one system of belief for another is it not?

Also, religion is not the cause of any war in my opinion. Just the excuse given to justify that war. Science has made it so that there are even more brutal ways of slaughtering another. They say it's not the person or the gun which kills you, it's the bullet. In cases of war science is surely the bullet......

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Re: Topic: Religion.........

Post by jezebel on 20th November 2009, 11:40 am

NR_TOAB wrote:But science requires just as much belief & faith as religion.
It's like trading off one system of belief for another is it not?

Also, religion is not the cause of any war in my opinion. Just the excuse given to justify that war. Science has made it so that there are even more brutal ways of slaughtering another. They say it's not the person or the gun which kills you, it's the bullet. In cases of war science is surely the bullet......

I don't agree!! Science is not a belief...it's facts!!...water came to earth via asteroids crashing into us..which carry water!!...Life evolved in water..not by some ficticious almighty puff of air in 7 crummy days!!.......Life evoled to live on dry land and still is!!...We once had tails..hence our cocyx...our appendixes were useful at one time!!.......All fact!!

Science did not make war...science created weapons of war!!..Once we used slate on a stick and spears!!...and you said it science is the bullet....religionthe cause!!

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Re: Topic: Religion.........

Post by Bones on 20th November 2009, 11:57 am

How can science be facts? How can it be fact that water came to earth via asteroids when no one was around to know it? It's a guess, a stab in the dark & like religion, science is split over almost everything. While one scientist will tell you that water came via asteroids, another will tell you that water molecules were already in the gas which made up our atmosphere………. How can something which is fact be split?

We apparently evolved from microscopic organisms to water based creatures to land based lizard like things, to small hairy mammal like creatures, to primates, to our current form, yet there are still links missing. How do we know any of that is a fact when we do not have vital links to put it all together? Another guess maybe?

Religion has not been the cause of any war. As I've stated, it's merely been used as the excuse & justification for war. The cause of war is usually simply down to greed, sometimes it's down to growing dissatisfaction amongst people. Religion comes into it because if you say it’s a religious war you suddenly have the believers of that religion prepared to give their lives in a war without questions asked. People will fight for those things they believe in & the word of "God" is impossible to question, unlike the word of mere mortals.

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Re: Topic: Religion.........

Post by jezebel on 20th November 2009, 12:02 pm

Jeez Ty...difficult to say really coz I'm no scientist!!......but it's all very technical..and to do with physio chemical laws and reactive molecules!!.........Life began as cells.......the creation of the first cell is vague.as no-one was here to witness it...but you can be sure it was a real thing.......not a phony big old ghost living up in the clouds!!.......

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Re: Topic: Religion.........

Post by Bones on 20th November 2009, 12:05 pm

jezebel wrote:Jeez Ty...difficult to say really coz I'm no scientist!!......but it's all very technical..and to do with physio chemical laws and reactive molecules!!.........Life began as cells.......the creation of the first cell is vague.as no-one was here to witness it...but you can be sure it was a real thing.......not a phony big old ghost living up in the clouds!!.......


Hold on hold on. What you're saying is you don't know the ins & outs? Surely this means that, for you, this has to be down to belief. If you don't know how they are working this out then all you can do is merely believe or not believe what you are told. After all, you have no way of proving it for yourself.........

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Re: Topic: Religion.........

Post by Bones on 20th November 2009, 12:05 pm

jezebel wrote:Jeez Ty...difficult to say really coz I'm no scientist!!......but it's all very technical..and to do with physio chemical laws and reactive molecules!!.........Life began as cells.......the creation of the first cell is vague.as no-one was here to witness it...but you can be sure it was a real thing.......not a phony big old ghost living up in the clouds!!.......


Hold on hold on. What you're saying is you don't know the ins & outs? Surely this means that, for you, this has to be down to belief. If you don't know how they are working this out then all you can do is merely believe or not believe what you are told. After all, you have no way of proving it for yourself.........

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Re: Topic: Religion.........

Post by Bones on 20th November 2009, 12:15 pm

Tytonidae wrote:I say:
Religion is a system of human thought, including group practices and rituals and interwoven with society and politics, it was created by man but has nothing to do with the 'actual' belief in God. Of course you may question God, word of God, motivations of God - for a while, via the Bible teaching but eventually one must come to a conclusion because questioning one's whole life away,, in a sitting on the fence lazy manner, will not be sufficient commitment and probably will not lead to everlasting life.

But the bible was written by man also. All the bible teaches is what man wanted you to know. It doesn't answer questions about the word of god as it hasn't been proven to be Gods words. It's been re written, translated & put together by man so it can no more answer questions on god than my local priest.

Also, religion requires a belief in God surely. Entire religions are built on what is supposed to be the word of god. The 7 deadly sins which we are supposed to steer clear of are supposed to be from God. The Ten Commandments were supposedly given to Moses by God. The religious books of each religion are said to contain the words & will of god, so how can religion not require a belief in God?

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Re: Topic: Religion.........

Post by jezebel on 20th November 2009, 12:16 pm

Well no I'm no scientist so alot of what I know is based on what I learn and read!!....but some things are right before your eyes......fish with feet.....us with tiny useless tails (cept me).......excavation of fossils....which I have seen with my own eyes....it's more a case of common sense...than belief!!

And TY......I think people do believe in some devine being...as with Jesus...who to me is just like todays Harry Potter......and all this ritualistic stuff is just a result and a means of expressing that belief!!

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Re: Topic: Religion.........

Post by Bones on 20th November 2009, 12:24 pm

jezebel wrote:Well no I'm no scientist so alot of what I know is based on what I learn and read!!....but some things are right before your eyes......fish with feet.....us with tiny useless tails (cept me).......excavation of fossils....which I have seen with my own eyes....it's more a case of common sense...than belief!!

And TY......I think people do believe in some devine being...as with Jesus...who to me is just like todays Harry Potter......and all this ritualistic stuff is just a result and a means of expressing that belief!!


Which proves that science is based on a system of belief. I have no doubt that the world started many years ago & many other creatures have walked, swam or flown around this planet. That IS fact. No one argues it & anyone can see that. How we got here is not fact. There's as much chance that a devine being put us here as there is that we landed here on a metorite. You believe one theory & others believe another........

Oh, and Jesus was very real. Who he was & what he could do however is the only thing which is debated......

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Re: Topic: Religion.........

Post by jezebel on 20th November 2009, 12:37 pm

NR_TOAB wrote:
jezebel wrote:Well no I'm no scientist so alot of what I know is based on what I learn and read!!....but some things are right before your eyes......fish with feet.....us with tiny useless tails (cept me).......excavation of fossils....which I have seen with my own eyes....it's more a case of common sense...than belief!!

And TY......I think people do believe in some devine being...as with Jesus...who to me is just like todays Harry Potter......and all this ritualistic stuff is just a result and a means of expressing that belief!!


Which proves that science is based on a system of belief. I have no doubt that the world started many years ago & many other creatures have walked, swam or flown around this planet. That IS fact. No one argues it & anyone can see that. How we got here is not fact. There's as much chance that a devine being put us here as there is that we landed here on a metorite. You believe one theory & others believe another........

Oh, and Jesus was very real. Who he was & what he could do however is the only thing which is debated......

It doesn't really prove anything!!....If common sense were to prevail whatever we know about science is what we learn...not what we went and found out!!....Bit like learning to add up!!........In science however....you wouldn't add up 2 and 2 and make 5!!......Common sense based on the factual things we actually DO know!! There is absolutely NO chance of a devine invisible 'thing' making us with (his/her/it's) bare (hands/claws/hooks) existing because there is no proof at all....unlike science..whether they disagree or not...at least you have some proof to help you learn the truth!!

I agree on the Jesus theory by the way!!.......In a few thousand years ..who knows...Harry Potter may just well be our new lord and god!!!

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Re: Topic: Religion.........

Post by Frog on 20th November 2009, 12:50 pm

I can't believe you're doing this topic without me Mad I can't get on for any length of time until later but I will definitely join in on this one Very Happy

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Re: Topic: Religion.........

Post by Frog on 20th November 2009, 12:55 pm

Tytonidae wrote:NR said:
"But the bible was written by man also. All the bible teaches is what man wanted you to know. It doesn't answer questions about the word of god as it hasn't been proven to be Gods words. It's been re written, translated & put together by man so it can no more answer questions on god than my local priest."

I say:
The Bible proves itself to be the word of God. Written over 1,500 years by different people but inspired by God via The Holy Spirit. No human could ever devise such an intricate combination of writings. Manuscripts have survived despite time.
Prophesies have been fulfilled and are checkable. No other so called 'divine' book comes close to the Bible in its proof of divine authorship.
It is there as guidance, from God, for you to study and believe and is miraculous.

What do you think The Bible is? Who do you think devised such an enormously complicated 'story'?

What about the Koran? The Torah? If the people in charge threaten to kill anyone that defaces a book then it sure as hell will last throughout the years.

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Re: Topic: Religion.........

Post by jezebel on 20th November 2009, 12:55 pm

Hey Hiya Lilypoo............. cheers Peck ...well I wanna answer Ty...but moff to lunch now so will be back later!!........... Waving

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Re: Topic: Religion.........

Post by Frog on 20th November 2009, 12:58 pm

Thinking about it, the Veda (hinduism) is something like 1000 older than Jesus!

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Re: Topic: Religion.........

Post by Frog on 20th November 2009, 1:54 pm

Agreed Ty, I wont mention the translation from ancient text at all. That's not to say that NR wont though Twisted Evil

All I was saying is that the Bible isn't the only text with that level of intricacy that has survived for so many years and it's not the oldest so what makes it the right one to believe?

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Re: Topic: Religion.........

Post by Bones on 20th November 2009, 2:16 pm

jezebel wrote:It doesn't really prove anything!!....If common sense were to prevail whatever we know about science is what we learn...not what we went and found out!!....Bit like learning to add up!!........In science however....you wouldn't add up 2 and 2 and make 5!!......Common sense based on the factual things we actually DO know!! There is absolutely NO chance of a devine invisible 'thing' making us with (his/her/it's) bare (hands/claws/hooks) existing because there is no proof at all....unlike science..whether they disagree or not...at least you have some proof to help you learn the truth!!

I agree on the Jesus theory by the way!!.......In a few thousand years ..who knows...Harry Potter may just well be our new lord and god!!!

What we know about religion is what we learn, not what we go & find out. In science it is quite common to add 2 & 2 together & get 5. The problem is scientists are convinced that they've added 2.5 & 2.5 or 2+2+0.5+0.025+0.025+0.075+0.375........ One massive problem science has is that it has on many many occasions been proven to be wrong.
The Biblical creation story was never intended to be taken literally. If you stop thinking of "god" as an omnipotent divine being & start thinking of "God" as simply a "Higher Power" you'll see that what created this planet, this universe & all life is in fact invisible. From the science angle it's all to do with matter, especially dark matter which cannot be seen. So whichever angle you look at it from we were created by an invisible force & we are governed by invisible forces. Something which both science & religion agree upon. They're not so different really.

With science you have about as much proof as you do with religion. It's all about how you interpret what you are presented with.

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Re: Topic: Religion.........

Post by Bones on 20th November 2009, 2:40 pm

Tytonidae wrote:I say:
The Bible proves itself to be the word of God. Written over 1,500 years by different people but inspired by God via The Holy Spirit. No human could ever devise such an intricate combination of writings. Manuscripts have survived despite time.
Prophesies have been fulfilled and are checkable. No other so called 'divine' book comes close to the Bible in its proof of divine authorship.
It is there as guidance, from God, for you to study and believe and is miraculous.

What do you think The Bible is? Who do you think devised such an enormously complicated 'story'?


In my opinion it doesn't prove itself as the word of God. If we look at the Christian Bible, It's a collection of stories & diaries which were put together 300 years after the death of Jesus Christ by men, not god. Interestingly, many accounts were omitted..... It was translated into many different languages by men, and then reinterpreted by men. Christianity cannot even agree upon the contents of the Bible. Did God really create a book which ultimately serves to divide us?

There are many Egyptian manuscripts which have survived the test of time & many other documents have survived vastly longer. Prophesies of Nostradamus have been proven to come true. Prophesies of regular people today come true every day, and they are all checkable.

I don't believe God wrote the bible at all. It was simply written by man with all its contradictions & tales of things to come if you don't act the way the bible says. Any "God" would surely know that creating people with Freewill means that whilst some will accept what you say others will undoubtedly rebel against it. Were we really created just to be destroyed by our creator for doing that which was given to us by our creator? It makes no sense! Only man can be so imperfect. The miracles you speak of can be explained away without effort. Moses parted the red sea? Nope. Geographically it's in the wrong place for him to have done that. Did he part any sea? Nope, simply knew the area which he was in & knew that the tide goes out low every evening & comes in high every morning. Basically, Moses was a General and as such was tactically sound and knew his terrain.

As I said, I believe the Bible to be little more than a collection of exaggerated stories to wow people & to frighten them into doing as they are told. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Re: Topic: Religion.........

Post by Bones on 20th November 2009, 3:16 pm

Read & studied the bible? Very closely. Growing up in my family I had little choice. Laughing I've also read & studied other religious scripts.....

So, if God did know, then God punishes us for that which is beyond our control. That doesn't sound like a very nice or fair God...... That sounds more like the work of the "Devil"..... But then I have always said God & The Devil must be one in the same......

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Re: Topic: Religion.........

Post by Frog on 20th November 2009, 3:21 pm

You can take all the teachings of all religious texts and condense them down to one handy little sound bite

"Do onto others as you would have them do onto you"

Forget worship, forget church, forget the ten commandments, if you really stick to this rule then surely there is no god that can punish you for eating pork on a sunday or not taking communion.

I have not studied the bible, I read it when I was younger but it just didn't grab me in the way that it does for some people. Having said that I haven't studied the Koran or any other major religious texts but I have the same opinion on them.

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Re: Topic: Religion.........

Post by Bones on 20th November 2009, 3:29 pm

Do onto others as you would have done onto you ................... But do it first.... Laughing

An Eye for an Eye

But

Turn the other cheek....... scratch scratch

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Re: Topic: Religion.........

Post by Frog on 20th November 2009, 3:31 pm

An eye for an eye will make the world blind LP

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Re: Topic: Religion.........

Post by jezebel on 20th November 2009, 3:38 pm

Yeah....and a tooth for a tooth will make us all gummy!!.. Laughing

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