The Death Penalty

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Do humans have the right to use Death as a punishment

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The Death Penalty

Post by Frog on 28th September 2009, 8:53 am

I’m still on the fence regarding the Death Penalty, it comes down the fact that it is killing in the name of justice as a deterrent to killing. So whilst this first post is expressing my reasons for not thinking it's a good idea, I am interested to hear the arguments for the opposition to this position.

So you have a government saying “you’re not allowed to kill people or we’ll kill you” That’s sort of like expecting your kids not to learn to shout when you shout at them! If a government wants to take a moral high ground on a particular crime then the punishment shouldn’t be the crime itself!

That’s just one problem I have with it, the other is the question of justice. What exactly constitutes justice and what makes it different from revenge? If someone had their belongings taken from them then I would say that justice for that would be the returning of those belongings plus appropriate compensation for any expenses incurred so what is the appropriate justice for someone who has been killed. They are no longer here to benefit from this “justice” so surely the death penalty is just a form of revenge meted out by society.

That said I don’t think killers etc should go unpunished but I think we need to be clear as to the motivation behind our punishments and ask does this make us any better than the criminals we are punishing. I, for one, don’t want anyone else’s blood on my hands and I think if you support the death penalty you should be prepared to take a life yourself, otherwise you’re saying it’s fine for someone else to have that death on their conscience as long as it’s not you.

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Frog on 28th September 2009, 9:10 am

Tytonidae wrote:I have voted no.

Capital punishment reduces the high moral ground the state seeks to take, to the barbarism of the criminal. Open to error and undermining of our humanity, I hope it never returns to Britain.

Good Morning Ty Waving

So you have absolutely no room to entertain the idea of the death penalty? Maybe we will see a good argument to the contrary today but I can't think of much to support it right now.

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Frog on 28th September 2009, 9:43 am

We shall see, I'll hold my vote til I've seen a few more posts though.

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Frog on 28th September 2009, 9:52 am

Well this is why I put the thread up Ty, I was talking to my mum about his over the weekend (one of those touching mother to son conversations) and she was very much in favour of it. I sort of get where she’s coming from, when you’re talking about rapists/child abusers/murderers I understand the desire to remove them from our world. My concern was that she was talking as if they had done her some wrong personally which made me think is this justice or revenge. If it is just revenge then shouldn’t we as a species stand together against these sorts of crime and say if you hurt one of us then we’ll hurt you back, or should we try to remain impartial when judging such a case?

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Frog on 28th September 2009, 10:08 am

That's probably where my vote will end up but I'm interested in the other side of the argument. We've been killing people in the name of justice since the time of Christ, there must be more to it than just revenge.

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Frog on 28th September 2009, 10:35 am

I don't buy that crap about deterrents anyway, how many thousands of years have we had punishment for crime and that has never once stopped anyone from doing it

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Frog on 28th September 2009, 10:46 am

Say's it all really doesn't it, death is used as a revenge masquerading as a deterrent.

Vote cast.

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Frog on 28th September 2009, 11:17 am

It doesn't seem to have counted my vote Sad

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Frog on 29th September 2009, 1:59 pm

Believe it or not, it's general knowledge in America that it's MORE expensive to kill a prisoner than to imprison them for life. Much of the expense is attributed to the mandatory appeals through and up the legal system prior to their death, which typically takes at least ten years. There was a recent case of a convicted killer that wanted to waive all appeals. His wishes were appealed against by his lawyers!!

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Frog on 29th September 2009, 3:36 pm

Shocked Wow, I thought we had some opened minds here!

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Frog on 29th September 2009, 3:45 pm

Well to state that paedophilia is an incurable condition is a bit naïve surely! It’s a condition of the mind, like an addiction but more disturbing. I agree that it would be hard to stomach letting one out of prison or even trying to be part of their rehabilitation but unless you have first hand experience with them then how can you say it’s uncurable?

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Frog on 29th September 2009, 3:59 pm

I haven’t looked much into it but from what I understand it’s not a sexual preference it’s a power and dominance situation sort of like rape. It’s not so much about the look of their chosen victim but more about the fear they can instil and the control they can exert. That has to come from an insecurity issue.

As to whether any have been rehabilitated I have no idea but I guess they must have been or they wouldn’t let them out on the streets again.

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Bones on 8th October 2009, 11:33 am

Death is not a punishment, It's a release........

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Bones on 8th October 2009, 3:50 pm

How did they "Lose the right the right to live"? Who of us humans is in a position to decide whether another has the Right to live or not.....?

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Bones on 9th October 2009, 6:53 pm

Personally, if someone killed a loved one of mine I would want them to live for as long as possible. I would even pay for a blood transfusion to keep them alive if it was needed. I would want them alive & suffering for their crimes just like I would be. Why should they get to die & I get to live with the pain greif and suffering which was caused by their crime? Why should they be afforded the luxury of leaving this life & their crimes behind yet I'm given a constant reminder of what they have done by the absence of that loved one?

Death is little more than a release from this life. A release I am not prepared for someone to have after they have caused so much pain & suffering. I say let them live. No "human rights" crap, no three meals a day crap, no TV, No outside, No contact with the outside world. Just living their days out in pain, suffering, torture & torment.

People like Huntly, Hindley & Brady have all had a stab at suicide. That tells me that death is something they would welcome....

I want them to wake & remember what they have done every single day, just like I would have to. If I could, I would build a prison of my own where only the vilest of the vile would be sent to. A place where they would suffer on a daily basis. Where they would wake up & wish every day that they didn't do what they did as they face another day of suffering & pain. A place where they would beg for the sweet release which death would bring them.

No, don't give people like that a way out. Keep them alive & punish them properly. Punish them & make them hurt every single day for what they did. That's what the loved ones of their victims have to do......

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Bones on 10th October 2009, 1:10 pm

For me it's not about whether they feel guilty or not. It's about the fact that none of us know what happens after death. Once these vile people are dead how do we know they are in some kind of "hell" and suffering for their crimes? How do we know, for a fact, that religions are wrong when they say that all you have to do is repent, little more than saying sorry, and you will be allowed into heaven?

I'm not a gambling man & I certainly don't want to gamble on the punishment these people will receive. We have no control over the pain and suffering of those who are dead, but we do have that control over the living, as these people themselves have proven. Put any person on the planet through enough pain, suffering & torment and they will beg for death. Guilt ridden or not, if they are feeling enough suffering every day of their lives they will beg for an end to it. They will beg for death.

I say that the way to punish these people is to give them enough pain, torment & suffering so that they beg for death to come & welcome it with open arms. Then we delay that death for as long as possible & make them suffer even more. I don't like the idea of taking the risk that they will be in a better place once they die. While they are alive I can be 100% sure that they are suffering & being punished for their crimes.

I care how murderers feel. It's very important to me purely because I want to know, for a fact, that they feel pain. I want to know that they feel tormented. I want to know that they are suffering and I can only know this if they are alive. Let them live, maximise their suffering for as long as possible. Death will come to them eventually but not before they pay for what they have done here. Once they have paid their dues here and we know that they have suffered then we can leave the rest to "fate" and the afterlife.

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Bones on 12th October 2009, 2:33 pm

Syl wrote:It is a horrible subject.
What markey said made sense. The familys of the victims, want the murderer to stay alive, in the hope that they may eventually give out information, so that they can find some sort of closure.
Yes, I can see that. In most cases though, that probably would'nt apply.
NR...I can see you are very passionate in what you believe. The way I see it, revenge is'nt important. It wastes energy that could be used more constructively.


Not revenge Syl. A punishment. If you see what I suggest as revenge then what would you call putting a murderer to death....? That seems more like revenge than what I've proposed....... An Eye for an Eye and all that........

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Bones on 13th October 2009, 10:57 am

People suffer for their crimes everyday. Every punishment is about suffering for what you have done. All I'm thinking is maybe we should up the stakes.
I don't think it would benefit society to murder a murderer. It didn't benefit society in times past. To have a public killing of another can only take society backwards again. A punishment needs to also work as a deterrent, and that needs to be something which people do not want. People do not want to suffer, no matter how evil they may appear.......

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Bones on 13th October 2009, 10:57 am

People suffer for their crimes everyday. Every punishment is about suffering for what you have done. All I'm thinking is maybe we should up the stakes.
I don't think it would benefit society to murder a murderer. It didn't benefit society in times past. To have a public killing of another can only take society backwards again. A punishment needs to also work as a deterrent, and that needs to be something which people do not want. People do not want to suffer, no matter how evil they may appear.......

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Bones on 13th October 2009, 1:21 pm

Many killers take their own life before they can be caught.... Others take their own life in prison & many more are on 24hr suicide watch.....

Doesn't seem like death would be a deterrent... Most people seem to see it as an escape.... A way to get out of being punished for their crimes.... How can that be a punishment if it's what most appear to want?

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Bones on 13th October 2009, 1:43 pm

I see where you're coming from, but someone who steals from a theif is no better than the theif & is also a theif.
I'm all for taking away their priviledges & giving them a very hard life for as long as they may live, but killing a killer only makes you a killer........

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Bones on 13th October 2009, 2:52 pm

The main reason I'm opposed to the death penalty is purely because I believe that death is a release. Another reason is that, as I've said, the killer of a killer is no better than the killer & has no moral high ground on which to stand. Would you say the executioner has also lost the right to live because he took the life of another? Or was he just doing what he was told so it's alright? Would those same rules apply to the general public? If John tells Steve to kill Dave & Steve does it who has lost the right to live? Both John & Steve? John didn't kill anyone & Steve was just following orders after all........

What about war? 2 sets of people blindly following orders to kill the other set? Which bunch of killers is better there?

If someone was threatening my child, and it was him or the child, then he's going down. My natural human reaction as a parent would be to protect my young at all costs, just like all other animals. If I had to kill another to protect my child then so be it, but I would still be a killer......

Killing is sometimes unavoidable and in this case it certainly would be avoidable. You don't have to kill someone to remove them from society. They don't need to die because the victims loved ones "Think" that they'll feel better. The facts are that they probably won't feel any better about it & consoling themselves with "Well, he's dead now too" is just conforming to the whole revenge thing.........

In my opinion, if you can avoid killing someone but still do, then killing is wrong. In my opinion we can avoid killing a killer.......

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Bones on 13th October 2009, 3:19 pm

Good debate indeed. We can agree to disagree, but I do see & understand your view.

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