Loyalty

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Re: Loyalty

Post by Frog on 24th September 2009, 4:34 pm

I would say yes but I temper it to meet the situation. If someone that I am loyal to is fiercely in the wrong then my loyalty to them is to prevent them from making a bigger fool/ass of themselves, I don’t think I would back someone up who I know to be wrong unless there was a good reason for it.

Why do you ask?

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Re: Loyalty

Post by Bones on 24th September 2009, 6:33 pm

I would say yes initially, but this would have to be within reason. I would back my best friend or my partner in just about any situation, but, when we're alone I will give them a "dressing down" & let them know that they were wrong or out of order or both.

People who know me know that I'm generally a fair person & try to see all sides of any argument or situation which may arise. I'm often acting the "referee" in disputes with friends..
They also know that I am fiercely loyal to those who do get close to me, but that I am also brutally honest with those people. I wouldn't hesitate to tell a close friend or partner what I truly feel about their actions as I believe these kinds of relationships are built primarily on trust, respect & honesty.

I trust those who are close to me not to make a fool of me as they can trust me to be as loyal as possible to them at all times.

I respect the opinions & beliefs of those closest to me so I expect them to respect any differing views which I may hold & those of others.

I believe that if you are to trust & respect others, and also receive these in return, then honesty with each other is required.

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Re: Loyalty

Post by Frog on 25th September 2009, 10:47 am

Tytonidae wrote:If I kept quiet in company, when any view came out of my loved ones mouth that I disagreed with, I would feel compromised;merely telling them in private might not be enough, as you have let all the other folk walk off with wrong impressions. It is misplaced loyalty, imo - so, what then IS loyalty in this situation. To me, it is couching my language in a gentle acknowleding way, so as not to undermine my friend but still get my own stance over but I would offer this courtesy to everyone, so perhaps I have no 'special' loyalty to anyone.

Maybe you're looking at loyalty in the wrong way then Ty. Just because you wouldn’t publicly agree with something that you know to be wrong, doesn’t mean you’re not loyal. It just means that your principled and you have afforded your friend the decency of not completely contradicting them and putting them on the spot. I don’t think that your original question would get you to the bottom of the question “am I loyal?”

Try this one: Chose the person you love the most in the world, imagine that things had gone really bad for them and they had landed themselves in trouble with the law (nothing massively immoral but enough to land them in prison for a few years). They turn up on your doorstep asking for a place to stay for the night while they think of what to do. Do you let them in and hide them for the night? Knowing that this would mean you are now breaking the law. Do you turn them away? Or do you let them in and then call the police?

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Re: Loyalty

Post by Frog on 25th September 2009, 11:01 am

See that to me would be one of life’s little loopholes, I think this is separate from the question of loyalty and takes you more into the question of how compromising are you? I tend to do the same thing but only because I don’t like to offend people. If my nan goes to the trouble of making me some of her god awful fruit pie with a good helping of lumpy custard and a piss weak tea I eat, drink and thank her for whole heartedly. She loves to think that she’s feeding me up and treating me and I love to make her feel good about it. That’s not loyalty in my eyes, that’s just being polite.

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Re: Loyalty

Post by Frog on 25th September 2009, 11:14 am

Tytonidae wrote:
LP wrote:
Tytonidae wrote:If I kept quiet in company, when any view came out of my loved ones mouth that I disagreed with, I would feel compromised;merely telling them in private might not be enough, as you have let all the other folk walk off with wrong impressions. It is misplaced loyalty, imo - so, what then IS loyalty in this situation. To me, it is couching my language in a gentle acknowleding way, so as not to undermine my friend but still get my own stance over but I would offer this courtesy to everyone, so perhaps I have no 'special' loyalty to anyone.

Maybe you're looking at loyalty in the wrong way then Ty. Just because you wouldn’t publicly agree with something that you know to be wrong, doesn’t mean you’re not loyal. It just means that your principled and you have afforded your friend the decency of not completely contradicting them and putting them on the spot. I don’t think that your original question would get you to the bottom of the question “am I loyal?”

Try this one: Chose the person you love the most in the world, imagine that things had gone really bad for them and they had landed themselves in trouble with the law (nothing massively immoral but enough to land them in prison for a few years). They turn up on your doorstep asking for a place to stay for the night while they think of what to do. Do you let them in and hide them for the night? Knowing that this would mean you are now breaking the law. Do you turn them away? Or do you let them in and then call the police?

I feel 'Loyalty' has lots of manifestations, LP and is on a continuum.

So, taking the aspect that you raise. Never the latter, so for me it would be one of the first two options you offer. Might depend on what they'd done but no, if it was the person I loved most in the world, I'd at least safe house them.
What would you do LP?

For me it would be the first option every time. The crime is going to have an impact on how quickly I say yes and then how I behave once they are in my house but I would never turn my back on a friend.

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Re: Loyalty

Post by Frog on 25th September 2009, 11:17 am

Tytonidae wrote:
LP wrote:See that to me would be one of life’s little loopholes, I think this is separate from the question of loyalty and takes you more into the question of how compromising are you? I tend to do the same thing but only because I don’t like to offend people. If my nan goes to the trouble of making me some of her god awful fruit pie with a good helping of lumpy custard and a piss weak tea I eat, drink and thank her for whole heartedly. She loves to think that she’s feeding me up and treating me and I love to make her feel good about it. That’s not loyalty in my eyes, that’s just being polite.

Seems we may be at odds about the definition of Loyalty - I'm thinking.

I see the goodness in your approach LP, that is the only way to go with one's nana, out of plain niceness and perhaps respect for her age and outlook but to continually adopt this approach throughout life, patronizes everyone, imo.

Depends on the severity of the compromise and then what keeping quiet will mean in the long run. I wouldn’t masquerade as a vegetarian for the sake of my veggie friends feelings but I might pretend that I like the taste of her flavourless Ragout!

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Re: Loyalty

Post by Pocahontas on 25th September 2009, 11:32 am

I remain loyal to people I care about.... regardless !!......... whether that's right or wrong, I dunno .... but that's just the way I am !

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Re: Loyalty

Post by Frog on 25th September 2009, 11:37 am

Pocahontas wrote:I remain loyal to people I care about.... regardless !!......... whether that's right or wrong, I dunno .... but that's just the way I am !

There’s nothing wrong with that at all as long as you’re not being disloyal to yourself in the meantime.

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Re: Loyalty

Post by Pocahontas on 25th September 2009, 11:45 am

I can't help the way I am Ty.... loyalty has got me into bother in the past... but to someone close to me I would find it very difficult to be disloyal tbh !!

I do have integrity, but perhaps that goes out the window when it comes to people I care deeply for !

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Re: Loyalty

Post by Frog on 25th September 2009, 11:52 am

So Ty, in Poca's case her loyalty overrides her own sense of right and wrong, the motivation in her comes from being loyal to the people she cares about. You could say that she's not being true to herself but what if to be true to herself she has to be fiercly loyal to those that she cares about?

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Re: Loyalty

Post by Pocahontas on 25th September 2009, 11:57 am

Tytonidae wrote:You have an honesty Poca and I bet you make a fantastic friend

Awww... thanks Ty

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Re: Loyalty

Post by Frog on 25th September 2009, 12:00 pm

Tytonidae wrote:You have an honesty Poca and I bet you make a fantastic friend Waving


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Re: Loyalty

Post by Frog on 25th September 2009, 12:10 pm

Tytonidae wrote:
LP wrote:So Ty, in Poca's case her loyalty overrides her own sense of right and wrong, the motivation in her comes from being loyal to the people she cares about. You could say that she's not being true to herself but what if to be true to herself she has to be fiercly loyal to those that she cares about?

The way you phrase your remarks at the end there LP I understand and this position, that yes I think Poca takes, has merit.

It's a good question Ty, the more you explore it the more gray areas seem to crop up.

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Re: Loyalty

Post by Frog on 25th September 2009, 12:13 pm

Tytonidae wrote:
LP wrote:
Tytonidae wrote:You have an honesty Poca and I bet you make a fantastic friend Waving


Creep Moon

Nice arse...

Why thank you very much Wink

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Re: Loyalty

Post by Bones on 25th September 2009, 12:47 pm

Tytonidae wrote:NR, what exactly is this 'respect' you speak of for your loved ones opinions and beliefs - if you don't agree, you probably don't 'respect.' Dunno



This respect I speak of is rather simple really. I'll give an example:

I'm not a religious person & have no time for it in my life. I believe religion is nothing more than a man made concept used to control the masses & that religious stories are little more than elaborate exaggerations of things which may have come to pass. I have many friends & family, of varying religions, who are deeply religious. Whilst I do not share their belief I do not "mock" or dismiss their beliefs. If I go out to eat with a Muslim friend I tend not to consume pork during the time I am with them out of respect for their belief. If I see a Christian friend on Good Friday then I will not eat meat during this time out of respect for their beliefs. I have even gone as far as to research many ‘religions’ so that I have a better understanding of their beliefs.
However, when I am not with these people I tend to pay little notice of these customs as they do not form any part of my own beliefs.

I don't need to agree with them to be able to understand their beliefs & show some respect towards them. I respect their right to hold that belief & their right to have an opinion regardless of how it may differ from my own.

In my opinion, agreement is not a prerequisite to respecting the beliefs & opinions of others. afro

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Re: Loyalty

Post by Frog on 25th September 2009, 1:18 pm

So how does this all tie into Loyalty? Respect is one thing but does that make you loyal? I show a lot of people, what I consider to be, the appropriate amount of respect but that doesn't mean I feel any loyalty towards them.

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Re: Loyalty

Post by Frog on 25th September 2009, 1:20 pm

So are loyalty and respect intertwined?

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Re: Loyalty

Post by Frog on 25th September 2009, 3:32 pm

Now this ties in with the friends thread, lets say that you told this friend that you thought they were wrong and they reacted by dismissing you from their life. Surely you’ve just lost a friend by not sticking with them.

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Re: Loyalty

Post by Bones on 25th September 2009, 3:39 pm

Or have you lost an irrational person who placed no emphasis on your feelings?

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Re: Loyalty

Post by Frog on 25th September 2009, 3:40 pm

NR_TOAB wrote:Or have you lost an irrational person who placed no emphasis on your feelings?

That’s what I’d like to know, I wouldn’t like to think of them like that but what else should I think?

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Re: Loyalty

Post by Pocahontas on 25th September 2009, 3:41 pm

LP wrote:Now this ties in with the friends thread, lets say that you told this friend that you thought they were wrong and they reacted by dismissing you from their life. Surely you’ve just lost a friend by not sticking with them.

Not a great loss if they can dismiss you that easily !

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Re: Loyalty

Post by Frog on 25th September 2009, 3:46 pm

Pocahontas wrote:
LP wrote:Now this ties in with the friends thread, lets say that you told this friend that you thought they were wrong and they reacted by dismissing you from their life. Surely you’ve just lost a friend by not sticking with them.

Not a great loss if they can dismiss you that easily !

Maybe not, hard to say really. The situation in question was clearly stressful and I'm thinking that it's just an overreaction in the heat of the moment. I guess time will tell.

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Re: Loyalty

Post by Bones on 25th September 2009, 3:56 pm

LP wrote:
Maybe not, hard to say really. The situation in question was clearly stressful and I'm thinking that it's just an overreaction in the heat of the moment. I guess time will tell.

More than likely. I'm sure you know then better than we do. Give it time & see what happens.

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Re: Loyalty

Post by Frog on 29th September 2009, 10:11 am

Do you mean as in only posting only certain forums?

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Re: Loyalty

Post by Frog on 29th September 2009, 10:25 am

Now that's interesting. I am very loyal to a few posters that have demonstrated true friendship qualities to me, I’d say there are probably four people that I will back up completely always vouch for and look forward to seeing them come online. I’ve never had to test that loyalty though, I’d like to think that I never will have to either.

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Re: Loyalty

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